Different faiths, and nonfaith

[PaulC]

I have questions and concerns that this group might be able to help me with. However, I'm not a person of faith, although I am open-minded. Because of this, I fear that some questions and perspectives I have might be seen as detrimental or divisive.

For example:
How do I respond to polite and caring persons of faith who ask if they can make a small religious offering or sacrifice on my behalf, or who announce that they already have done so?
I appreciate the thought, but would prefer to reject the gift.
If you were the person who performed such a ritual for me, how would you prefer to be treated by someone who doesn't adhere to your faith and is discomfited by the offering?

More generally: Is it the group's sense that this group is not an appropriate one for people like me? (If so, I would completely understand, and would withdraw from the group without hard feelings.)

[Charlie Royce]

Paul,
Interesting name.... Paul was a the guy that included all believers in the Bible. I heard the word "believer" best described (at an easter service no less) as a series of small personal trampolines. Each trampoline represents a lifestyle or belief system. The point was we all have belief systems, even if it is a system of going it alone. I believe most faiths (when properly managed) would welcome you and your participation. The question is would you be willing to stay in the dialog and suspend some ideas in order to try to understand where others are coming from? It seems that most folks can manage this. There is always room for more knowledge and this is as good a place as there is to learn about living with these challaneges.

[PaulC]

Of course I'm willing to stay in dialog; it's more of a problem getting me to shut up! :-)

And, I'm eager to entertain or suspend any idea for the sake of discussion. Indeed, that is a quality that seems to set me apart from most people.

I'm not sure I know what you meant when you wrote, "Paul was the guy that included all believers in the Bible". Amongst the notable names in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim faiths, I'm only aware of a Paul who was formerly Saul of Tarsus (שאול התרסי) before he had an epiphany on the road to Damascus, and to whom is attributed many beautiful, powerful, and scolding epistles in the Christian New Testament. If so, it's unclear to me in what sense he could have included all believers in the Bible.

[PaulC]

I need some help with my prostate cancer support group, which is composed almost entirely of people who profess one or more Christian faiths (I think). I strongly sense it would be impolite for me to inquire about the logical meaning of statements like the following, but I don't know what to make of them or how to react to them:

• God, in His wisdom, has chosen to {bless,curse} me with {cancer,health}.
• I know I am {deserving,undeserving} of what He has bestowed upon me.
• I humbly offer my thanks to God for His {lovingkindness,pitilessness}.

I truly don't understand the mindset that would prompt any of these statements. Can someone help me out?

[Arnon Krongrad, MD]

1) People cope in various ways, some adaptive, some maladaptive. If I recall correctly from conversations with Dr. Burke (he's on call and promises to be more active soon), turning to God is an adaptive coping style, whereas turning to alcohol is a maladaptive coping style. In other words, the expressions of religious focus that you cite may be a means of coping with distress. Can it be that the logical meaning of the statements is that they help emotionally? Do you accept this as sufficient logical meaning?

2) If you don't know how to react, why react at all? Does it cause you distress that you do not know what to make of the statements? If so, how will you cope that will not risk you being impolite? Will you turn to God? humor? alcohol? socializing on the network? doing research? other? What is your coping style, Paul?

[PaulC]

1) Sorry, I'm missing the point, unless you're saying I'm looking for a logical meaning where there is none to find. I don't know where your topic of "coping" came from - it seems like a complete change of subject.

I'm also sense that I'm missing your questions. When I asked about "logical meaning" I meant semantic/semiotic content of the statement, not the psychology of the person saying it. (But maybe you're hinting I should be pay less attention to content than to the feelings I impute to someone?? I would and do resent it when anyone does this to me, and so by the golden rule I refrain from doing it to others.)


2) In any social situation, there are rules of behavior. I understand that I'm at sea in this situation, and I seek guidance. Yes, I am distressed to be unacquainted with the social norms for this social situation, just as I imagine a person would be distressed to find himself asked to read aloud a warm and sincere expression of group welcome when nobody knows he's illiterate. I feel I'm in much the same position.

Again, I think I'm missing your question. You asked how I will cope; I can only reply how I do cope with the situation I described. I try to fit in with the body language and intent of my companions in the group and to avoid doing things that I imagine would cause needless discomfort. (But I'm clearly missing the thrust of question: For example, when I'm interacting with the group, trying to make sense of what people are saying, I could hardly turn to alcohol or socializing on the network or doing research.)


Generally, my coping style is to try to make sense of things as best I can. My approach is to learn the terminology and concepts employed by people who have more experience than I, and to converse with them, trying to get a sense of their knowledge and reasoning. I make no pretense to expertise where I have none, but I also have no fear of asking intellectual authority to explain itself, or inquiring into apparent contradictions or inconsistencies.

Is that a coping style, as you use the term? If not, then maybe you could illustrate what you mean by telling me about your coping style.


By the way, did you have any thoughts on the questions I actually did ask?

[Arnon Krongrad, MD]

Coping is how we transform distress into non-distress. Religious observance is a style of coping. So is alcoholism. Some style are adaptive. Others are not. Let me point out that I am not the expert on this subject. I would point you to Michael Burke, psychiatrist, who worked with me for seven years in a Veterans prostate cancer clinic. He will be more technically correct than I can be. But yes, it all relates.

Support groups, prayer and God, rationalizing, making jokes, making sense as best you can ... this is all about coping and feeling less distressed. All of it is driven by emotion. What I think you're describing is a group of people whose coping style differs from yours.

This is all in direct response to your questions. This is a Socratic sort of way to get you to think about you and how you deal with distress. It's a didactic step back away from the specifics and an initial review of the conceptual framework within which I see your questions.

[PaulC]

I know it's a group of people whose coping style differs from mine, and I know and am happy with my coping style.

What I don't know, and what I therefore seek guidance on, is how to make sense of the content and the mindset that prompts the types of statements I cited.

I don't get why the subject shifted from the one to the other. My post was not seeking help finding a support group or identifying additional coping mechanisms. It's as if I said, "I have a cut; can someone help me stop the bleeding?" and I received the reply, "Are you feeling distressed? Do you cope via humor? alcohol?" That might be another interesting topic to discuss after we find the cotton gauze.

[Arnon Krongrad, MD]

The content and mindset make sense to me: it represents a way for them to cope with their situations. You say above that you know this. What is it then that you do not know? I don't understand.

[PaulC]

Here is what I don't know:

• I don't know the logical meaning of statements like ones I cited.
• I don't know the mindset of a person making such statements.
• I don't know how to react to such statements.

I thought I had made that quite clear, and am very startled to hear you assert that I said that I know this.

• In what post of mine do I decipher, or claim to know the logical meaning of the statements?
• In what post of mine do I claim to know the mindset of the person making such statements?
• In what post of mine do I say I know how to react to such statements?

Another example: A professor says, "The exothermal energy of the chemical reaction is less than 4 kilojoules." He may have said this while grading papers in a restaurant after being served some burnt toast Possibly the statement was a way of coping with his disappointment, and possibly not. But what does it mean? What is the mindset that prompts it? How does the waiter react?

[Mike Keighley]

Hi Paul,,

I am in the Land of Oz so hope I am on the right track.

About faith::: Faith is a loosely used word and I guess one thing needs to be said.

ALL humans have faith in SOMETHING........ and most things we have faith in we cant see.

eg -- you get in your car - you drive to a busy intersection - traffic coming in all directions - you apply the brake KNOWING the car will slow -- BUT -- did you check the fluid in the brake cylinder? did you check the discs on the brake ? did you check tread on your tires??

Bet you didnt --- but you entrusted your life to something you cant see or didnt bother to look at --- why???

We all do it ---- why?? Because from PAST EXPERIENCE you know it works.. ...... however ....... without past experience would you trust it??

Why do we trust planes? Because they have a good track record and we put FAITH in them.

Why do some people have a FAITH in a higher source ?? A God? A Healer??

For some it is in fact Blind Faith -- for others it is Faith based on Past Experiences - they have tested and tried it and it works!!

A definition of FAITH that I like is 'Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld ' it is not blind but based on realities already in existence...

I read that in an ancient eastern book commonly known as the bible.


Well thats my two bobs worth on Faith --- but I might have more if think about it!

Back to the bush for now............

[Angela Jenkins]

Good answer Mike. Liked your definition of faith.
Faith in God may become more "obvious" when we are faced with difficult times. But people of faith have entrusted their lives to God, therefore He is involved in every part of our lives- be it good health or sickness. Life happens. These bodies are going to wear out. But faith gives us the strength and hope for tomorrow, whatever it brings.

[PaulC]

Hi Angela,
I have strength and hope for every tomorrow, even though I lack faith.

But I've known people who lacked strength, or lost sight of hope. Does weakness prove they lack faith?